Most of you will know by now, that I’ve left Christianity, quite suddenly to some. The truth is that the cause of my disagreement with God has been there for a long time now. Every time I hear the news that a confused teenager has gone out and shot twenty people, or that every thirty seconds a person is dying of Malaria, I see that reason, and I can’t ignore it – there is so much wrong with this world that either God doesn’t exist, or he doesn’t care.
Now some would like to tell me that by turning my back on God, I am abandoning all that I have ever stood for. This isn’t true. I believe in a world where people should be rewarded for their hard work, and compensated for their misfortunes. I believe that if we put in the effort, and if we are ethical, moral people, we are better people than those who would lie and steal to achieve their aims. I believe that each individual should want to serve society as a whole, but that society should never (and should never have to)tell people to help it in ways they are not willing to. In the end, I believe that one should be able to live, with the greater good of society in mind, and die, content that society in turn has returned what it has received from them. I believe that many religious people here share my view of an ideal world.
Coming back to the reason I have decided to leave the Church. I feel that we, as a people, have betrayed each other. I wonder at the purpose of the Bible, and whether people spend so much time reading it that they forget the reason it was written – I think God, if there is one, gave us the bible as a code of conduct – and that if we stuck to the guidelines that God had set down for us, we would:
- find inner peace and be one with God, and
- bring about a utopia for all, where the world is filled with joy and idealism, where peace reigns not only within the soul but everywhere – the land of milk and honey.
(NB: I assume this is true for the major religions besides Christianity.) The first object of the code, people excel at. We are so at peace with ourselves that we ignore the glaring sins we have committed, and either forget or ignore the second, greater objective. This is my first criticism of the vast majority of religious. (My second is that the religious are frequently too busy trying to convert others that they forget the two objectives that the Bible seems to be telling us.) If God exists, then I think he will forgive my frustration with him – he told us that if we conduct our lives well, we would be given utopia. But what he didn’t tell us is that we need to build it on our own. He expected us to work this fact out for ourselves.
This is the third possibility – that God, for whatever reason, has decided that we are to do the work he set for us, and that we have to earn our keep.
My current line is this: I am going to do as much as I can for the downtrodden of the world. God isn’t going to do it directly. Again, the three possibilities are that he doesn’t exist, can't be bothered, or he’s waiting around for me, and people like me, to do something about it.
If it’s the first then I suppose I would have lived up to the objectives I’ve set for myself – that I as one of the more fortunate people should give to society as much as I can give, willingly and with no regrets.
If he really does exist but cannot be bothered, then I suppose I would rather not believe in a God who could stop all this nonsense, yet chooses not to.
If it is the latter, I suppose God would meet me at the end of my life, and tell me how this was all part of his grand plan. And maybe then I would decide whether to believe in a God who would rather people save themselves, even though he himself can.
My path to agnosticism begins here, and I am turning my back on God for the time being, but not on what God says – that the world as it is needs fixing, and that we shouldn’t expect anyone else to do the fixing for us.
[EDIT: I am not turning my back on God, but on our religious teachings on God and the way God operates – things will become clearer to me later, and I would rather be active and practical than ponder over the same thoughts repeatedly. I believe I made that statement with a great deal of frustration, and therefore didn’t quite check what I wrote. Thank you, Mum, for pointing out my typo.]
26 comments:
i tot the utopia u and everyone else wanted is heaven. so lets say earth became like heaven...no one wud wanna go to heaven d.
anyway u do make sense. that rate of death of malaria is alarming so as humans we turn to blame someone.
anyway..i wish that andrew wud come and debate...i really wud like to see. its a question i've asked b4 but not to the extent of leaving for i saw the results of these 'evil doings' like i told u last night on msn.
oh n if u do find a good answer, lemme know.
Trying to make earth better isn't subverting heaven, it's trying to improve the lives of the people here, and now. We will always face problems from birth to death, but if we say there will always be problems and don't fix them, then nothing on earth will ever change, and the innocent will continue to die.
Agreed. What seems especially tragic to me is the fact that death and disease affect so many of the innocent and yet spare the people who really don't deserve to be where they are now.
I've told Andrew of the post, and I would like very much to hear from him as well.
Yeah if God does eventually come down and explain this whole debacle to me, I will call you on your mobile and tell you. Don't hold your breath though, I have a feeling this will take a while.
I'm not talking religious. But about Fate.
Do you believe in fate? Ever wondered why some people were born with a silver spoon; whilst some people were here with nothing? And though somebody is living a good life but suddenly for no apparent reason, just died?
How you fare this life is what you DID last time. It accumulates. God may not "appear" but they are watching. Which is why, bible or not, every bit of good and moral you contribute to the world pays.
I feel lucky.
So, according to your understanding of karma, bad things happen to people because of something terrible they have done in the past, but cannot ever apologise for, learn from or make right - because they don't remember ever having done something evil.
And therefore, these people deserve to suffer horribly and die before their time?
How does that make any sense?
Have you looked the other way, like God give us the knowledge and intelligence to solve problems mankind face? Malaria, for example, we know that its a virus. With that knowledge we could make vaccines or drugs to fight it. Maybe God wants us humans to apply what God have given us.
Arguably, we are more privileged than the odinary Iraqis, Palestinians, Etiopeans or our not so lucky fellow Malaysians. But everyone has their Achilles heel. My dad talks about the good old days when they as kids don't worry too much and live life. Yes, he did study (he is one intelligent person). We see nowadays kids as young as 7 going for tuition classes and are faced with tremendous pressure to excel. Yes, they do have better toys and quality of life (better facilities, food, healthcare) compared to us or our parents, but they are living in a world where we as kids would never imagine being into.
Sometimes I think karma has a role. If you commit a wrong, probably it is going it back to you. If not now, then it would be the afterlife or the next world whatever you call it. Well, if you regret committing these sins or wrongdoings and are really sincere about it and promise yourself not to do it anymore, then I think God may forgive you.
Yu Teik, Fate has a role. Whatever it has been inscribed in the tree of Fate, you can still change it; you are the one calling the shots.
Rewards. Yes, societies in the world do reward hard work, but trouble is, the people you'e thinknig of, their hardwork is not recognized. Reason? Distance from those people. No one recgonizes the contributions of the poor farmer until famine hits them. Look at Matthew 6: 1-21. I think this would be the basis for your 'Greater Good' ideals. Do things for the greater good (albeit secretly), teaching us about having a giving and sacrificial heart.
Yes, you do question about why we spend so much time reading about His words, well, for now, all I can say is that, yes, it's a guide for us, a guide for us to become more Christ-like, using it to reflect our own imperfections and trying to correct those. You might argue that we're spending too much time looking in the 'mirror' too engross about our own 'appearances' to take notice of the world around us, how are we to reflect His light if we, the mirror is stained and dirty? How are we to see the speck of dust in our fellow brother's eye when we have a plank in our own? (Matthew 7: 3-5)
And as for sticking to the 10 commandments, read Galatians 3, yes, it is a good guideline, but hardly one that all of us can follow completely. That is the reason why Jesus came to Earth, to redeem us, for all of us are condemned by the Law as we can't follow it 100%, all fell short of His criteria. But He still chose to get us back to His side, He still chose to love us and sent His son to absolve all our sins.
And this begs the question, if He so loved us, why have suffering? Why didn't He intervene? Well, I knew what your father did to you last time and you might say that he doesn't love you, but every parent must put their kid in line, if they do not, what would become of us? We would've done what we liked (Proverbs 3: 11-12, 29:15). In the Old Testament, there you will read that He disciplines His chosen people, the Israelites, by handing them over to their enemies, and true to His promise to Abraham, he still kept them alive as a people, not letting them be blotted out of history. He gathered them back from exile in Baybalon, after they have brought to their senses of the wrongs they've committed prior to their exile. And the example of Job, He did not bring suffering upon us, He allowed it to happen, that we may grow to be stronger in our fortitude ad convictions. But He never allow us to suffer more than we can bear. I would also like to direct you to another blogger's page, http://www.scribd.com/doc/805/Why-Does-God-Allow-Suffering I do not know the person who write it, just found it when I was looking up Bible quotes to reply your post. Hope it'll be useful. Reading the book of Job might help as well.
And yes, I agree with you that most religion are too engrossed in waging war with one another, because all of us believe we are in the right, and all others are wrong. On this matter, I will not disrespect others view, but I will let His hand upon my life do the talking. If you've experianced Him, you'll know what we Christians are talking about: having that relationship with Him, which is what Christianity is all about. That is why we're so eager in sharing our views, and trying to fulfill the Great Commission, because of our experiances.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bring you back. You yourself, shall find your way home eventually. (Luke 15: 11-31)
karma...
or we can just call it cause and effect.
Well..Scientifically it actually makes sense.
Example :
1.you litter a piece of tissue on the floor
2.the wind blew the piece of tissue to the drain
3.drain water flows into the sea
4.tissue dissolves into plankton or whatever and being consumed by fishes
5.fishes caught by fishermans and being sold back to you
6.YOU ate the fish/you got your tissue back
The logic is actually the same even in the perspective of morality.
1.You backstabbed your friend in the company.
2.Victim lost his job and bad mouthed you to other individuals
3.You became rich and powerful from your wrongdoings and in the meantime, gained alot of admirers.
4.Admirers sees your way of behaving as a model for being successful and even books were written about you.
5.The readers adept and imitates your methods and its ideology became part of themselves.
6.Part of the readers start working for you.
7.You are then backstabbed by your trusted subordinates and while doing that, they told you "i just want to be successful like you".
karma... ironic eh....
Daniel,
I'm going to assume that you are taking a similar stance to my third possibility (God wants us to work for our utopia), but really - how long have we known that Malaria is a parasite? How have we managed to create anti-bird flu drugs within months of H5N1 appearing, yet failed to create a vaccine for malaria even though it's been with us since the dawn of mankind? Sadly, and against my own wishes, I am forced to say that the vast majority of humans are motivated best by fear for themselves, or greed. Malaria is predominantly a disease of the poor. Enough then, that we should have a medication to treat the rich tourists who contract it, yet not a vaccination program that would be cheaper, longer lasting, and be meant for all! While bird flu, the disease that has officially killed 256 people (and assuming the hidden cases, maybe 500) in 7 years, threatens Europe, and makes pharmaceutical companies look bad in the news. Treat that, then, instead of the millions who die from malaria daily.
Choo,
"You might argue that we're spending too much time looking in the 'mirror' too engross about our own 'appearances' to take notice of the world around us, how are we to reflect His light if we, the mirror is stained and dirty? How are we to see the speck of dust in our fellow brother's eye when we have a plank in our own?"
If people decided to polish those mirrors, use them to solve their own problems and go do something to help others, I would agree. But they polish the mirrors, solve their problems, and then don't go out and help others like they were supposed to. I don't think that's what God meant for us.
"But He never allow us to suffer more than we can bear."
...Really? Think of the numbers of people dying every day from war and famine. Could you bear it if everyone you loved was taken away from you?
"every parent must put their kid in line, if they do not, what would become of us? We would've done what we liked"
Firstly I don't think God is putting people in line by letting innocent children die. And secondly there are people out there who are doing exactly what they like - living lives of luxury while the poor starve.
"having that relationship with Him, which is what Christianity is all about. That is why we're so eager in sharing our views, and trying to fulfill the Great Commission, because of our experiances."
People are too busy trying to spread the message that they forget to practice it! And I don't think being Christian stops at being one with God, then abandoning others to death and decay.
"You yourself, shall find your way home eventually."
I've been Christian for nigh on ten years now, and I've had doubts but always returned to it eventually. I suppose I might, but really my relationship with God is a very antagonistic one right now. He doesn't answer me when I ask him why he's letting people die horrible deaths. Instead he expects me to read up a massive tome that's 1500 years old, and been edited and translated so many times that nobody knows what it really means any more.
About Karma,
Firstly I spoke to a hindu friend about this, and she says karma according to hinduism applies only to those who believe in it. I think Buddhism's karma is supposed to apply to all, and do stop me if I'm wrong.
Secondly, I think karma is a GREAT system - but only within THIS life. Once we die and have our memories removed, then we are different people. Think about it - memory is what makes you you, you build yourself from what you have experienced. Therefore if memory is removed (which I assume it is, otherwise I'd remember a past life), the person is no longer whom they once were. So punishing someone for something they have done in a past life, when they don't remember what they would have done, and wouldn't have done anyway if put in the same position, doesn't make sense.
And finally, I suppose Karma would work in MORAL terms, but in Zheng's first example, you would almost certainly NOT eat a tissue that you've thrown into a drain. More likely, some other poor sod is going to choke to death on it - and we see how people like George W. are given fat contracts and the chance to retire in a texas ranch, despite the fact that his actions caused thousands of deaths. If he were a warlord in say, Uganda, he would have either been killed, or been handed to the International Court of Justice to be tried for crimes against humanity - where is karma now?
Hsin said:"I think Buddhism's karma is supposed to apply to all"
And it applies to ALL lifeforms on earth. It affects every soul, for example, are pigs supposed to be bred and killed for food? What are they in earlier life? Human? Birds? Bugs?
Some people do bad things this life and gets away dying old. But his karma is so filthy that he's gonna come out into something which his dirty karma will "chemically" transform him into lower than human.
Or his dirty karma accumulates in his spirit and ends up as an illness. Disrupting the Qi and body system.
Fine, but that still doesn't answer the question in my previous comment - that karma should really not apply to your next life once your memories have been removed.
You're someone different - you have a different body, a different set of memories, a different value and behaviour system. And to top it all off, you will never learn from the mistakes that you've done in the past life.
Which means, you are no longer YOU. So why should the punishment still apply?
i do agree dat it does not apply in THIS life, but it'll surely affect the NEWER GENERATION. Especially the "sinner's" younger generation.
take the Germans and Japanese for example:
today, wat will you picture in mind if i give you 2 key words:
1. War
2. Germans
most of us(who read history) shall picture WW2's Massacre on Jews, The Gas Chamber, "Hail Hitler!" and so on...
as for the Japs:
especially Chinese, remembers wat they did to our ancestors in Nanking or in Penang.
although the war ended decades ago.. but until today, we STILL REMEMBER their terrible acts and these people had constantly been made fun of especially in the media(pc games, movies, comics, etc...).
And China people loathed Japs so much that alot of them refused to have any business to do with them even now.
These long term "effect" are being implied(karma-ed) on the younger generation and they share the inherited genes of the "causer". As we all noe, we love our younger genes.. Imagine your grandson suffering from the "sins" you've done..
On the other hand, a Chinese proverb could explain why we need to do good: "qian2 ren2 zhong4 shu4, hou4 ren2 chen4 liang2"(translation: the ancestors plants the trees, the younger generation enjoys the shades). Which serves that "karma" actually applies on the good side too.
Zheng
All this talk about god or no god has lost track of what the idealogy of god was meant to achieve.
Sure some say god is Jesus, for others its Allah, for some its an assorted group of rather strange looking old man but in the end it all comes down to improving us, ourselves as human beings.
Religion in my humblest opinion is just a guide to achieving self-enlightenment, achieving balance and a better understanding of the world around us. The world i admit is a cruel and sometimes even nightmarish place at times but religions are there to smoothen the ride, a boat that guides us through the sea in turmoil around us. And being a guide, there will certainly be variations which gave birth to the many religions we see today.
Each individual however should not expect that any religion be tailor-made for them, since all religions can be is a general guide. We pick what we believe its true and certainly have the right to disprove aspects that we find does not apply in the world we live in.
Religion followed in extreme can be just as harmful as drug abuse. We've seen the worst of it from the 9/11 and suicide bombings. It is therefore best that we create our own guidelines in this life, make personal modifications to our "boat" that cruises us through our oceans.
Thus, i congratulate you chansey for creating a path for yourself, for stepping out of your comfort zone and leaving a religion that does not work for you. However, that does not make it justifiable to say that religion and god is all a sham or a hoax. The religions and ethics that came about today exist because its guidelines worked for a MAJORITY of people and it is their very right to believe in them.
Not everyone is born equal and perhaps never be born equal because it is up to each and every one of us to create the world around us. We are, no matter how insignificant, a part of this world and improving ourselves means improving the world as a whole. Certainly we are encouraged to help others in need but the ultimate goal is to seek balance in ourselves. We all gasp and cry over tragedies that happen to the millions of people around the world but overlook the fact than million others are benefiting from random acts of kindness all over the world. So karma or not, we cannot and are not meant to save everyone in this world but just change what we are capable of either directly or indirectly.
So it is not anybody's and certainly not god's fault that the world is unfair. It is unfair simply because it is the way it is and it is up to us to make the best of it, religion or no religion, god or no god. The final question to answer considering all this is: If the world was a fair place to begin with, would we even have this ideology of god and religion that exists today?
Good point.
agreed. Well said
Maybe you can start with existentialism. =]
Kinda reminds me of the story where the lecturer went up to the whiteboard, used a marker to make a small dot and asked the whole class, 'What do you see?' with the whole class answering 'A dot.', to which he replied, 'Everyone's blinded by the dot, that they no longer see the big whiteboard.'
Zheng,
Nonetheless, Japan and Germany are two of the largest economies on earth, and the average life expectancy of someone in Japan is higher than anywhere else in the world. On the other hand, Tibet, whose people have tried as best they can to achieve enlightenment, was invaded and occupied by China.
I REALLY want Karma to work. If it did we would be living in a much better place than we are now. But I can't deny what my eyes see either - that many who deserve to live instead die young, and many of those who have committed atrocities are given the highest awards that we as a people can give them.
Anonymous,
Thank you for your insighful post. I agree with the vast majority of it. I suppose the question for me, as one who has been more fortunate than many, is what I want to do with my life. I cannot see how I can improve myself without bearing others in mind, and perhaps what afflicts me after all is a kind of global 'survivor's guilt'.
The tough question really, is this:
Is everyone morally obliged to help those less fortunate than themselves? Do they have the right to lead their own lives without trying to help others? How much help is "enough"? I believe we could be doing much, much more than what we are doing now.
I have not yet concluded that God is a sham or hoax, but that there are three possibilities (which I have listed in the main body of my blogpost) to explain why God is not doing what I would have liked him to do. Indeed religion has given people hope, but as with anything it has also been manipulated to cause many of the problems we face today. I feel that many people fail to see the purpose why many of the religions were created.
Franklin,
I have no idea what existentialism is. Can you please explain it to us?
Anonymous, Choo,
I would agree that there is a great amount of good that many do not see, however 3 million deaths from Malaria per year is not a tiny dot either - that's one person every ten seconds. And that is merely one of the many (not small) "dots" in the middle of a white board that is being eaten up slowly by ink blotches.
Being the movie addict i always am, i find the quote from evan almighty, although being a comedy as it is, rather insightful.
"If you ask god for courage, does god give you courage, or rather the opportunity to be courageous"
However god or no god, this quote holds true, because, when it all comes down to it, we affect our day to day life by the decisions we make, we create the world around us, not just physically but also mentally.
So how much help is enough? Well, you tell me, what is the limit to your compassion? how many more people can your boat rescue? Will you need a bigger boat? If you do, then just make a bigger boat! Those questions are just decisions yet to be made that will pave down the next stretch of your road to the future.I believe that the more one helps others the more one comes close to balance with his/herself. What is your belief?
The god we speak of acts as a goal, a lantern that guides us through all times both happy and sad. Unfairness whether you like it or not is not gonna dissapear just because you willed god to doing so as it is part of this world; it has existed even before the beginning of gods and religions. Given this, do we give up and be down-hearted just because we cannot defeat it? Or do we do our best in fighting it, preventing it, and minimizing its aftermath?
Religion as i have explained being a guide is neutral, good or bad its up to us. We filter the good parts of it and discard what is irrelevant. And just like everything else in this world, moderation is the key. Some people might have misused religion but haven't we all misused one thing or another? If its something you feel strongly about then it is certainly in your power to educate those who have gone astray and bring them back.
As for the sad case of malaria, i agree, yes its tragic. But are you looking at the big picture? eg. the whiteboard. You see many dots clustered and blocking your view but what happens when u lean back and zoom out? How many ppl are there in this world? How many ppl are being saved from diseases every second in every hospital and clinic around the world?. Imagine how many more would die if we, the human race did not fight to prevent and curb malaria. We are not all powerful and I feel we are truly blessed to have the mental capability for the field of medicine, the profound technology of prevention and safety, to have the knowledge and awareness that allows us to make decisions that affect the world imensely. For what it's worth, we should be thankful for what we have and not brood over what we didn't have. Be satisfied over what we did and not ponder over what we didn't do.
After all, we are only human
Everyone has a Buddha in them. As mentioned, religion is just a guideline for people, we filter the good parts of it and discard what is irrelevant.
Anyone can choose to be their own god, or can choose to be a satan. As Jesus is also human, Buddha is also human.
Occam's Razor. Other that that, I guess I don't have much to say.
Pay a visit to my blog post on religion if you are interested.
dude, God never meant for our earthly lives to be smooth sailing, or even with a hint of utopia. Life, as we know it, is full of strife and suffering, and will continue to be so.
Yes, we can and should do our best to make this world a better place, but then , the big guy upstairs mean for us to try our best, making this world a better place, simply based on his guidelines and not have us rush off developing our world, but ending up destroying it (aka 'the day the earth stood still' way)
God simply wants us to live our lives to the max in a Godly manner. well, shit may go on and hit the fan continuously, God may have the power to bring about utopia, but still, i guess, the fundamental crux of christianity is that we choose do our best and leave to God the rest.
sure, u may argue that it would be folly to keep on believing in an omnipotent God that chooses to do nothing, yet, life as we know it will be rather meaningless and monotonous if we were living in a state of constant bliss.
moreover, if God sorts out all our shit, and makes all the 'right' or 'good' decisions for us, and set the paths of our lives, we would no longer be free, and have no more free will. Free will, was the reason why God created us in the 1st place, for we have the God given right to choose, to believe.
well, all i can say is, shit will always hit the fan, men will always doubt God, and there will always be tough times, but it is how we deal with this shit in the world and sets us apart.
still, i guess no matter what happens, i will always choose to believe. At the very least, my belief acts as a pillar for me to anchor my sanity in this crazy crazy world.
sorry for the late reply, have been busy as hell down under... hope all is well on ur end!
I begin with the name of God the Most Compassionate the Most Merciful,
This issue of evil in the world is something to ponder about, but thank God I am not confused about this issue nor does it decrease my faith in my Creator.
You see the way my religion (Islam) teaches us about evil is that first and foremost one needs to understand that nothing occurs in this world except with the permission and will of God. So whether it's something good or bad if God doesn't allow it to happen then it will never happen and so we say God has control of everything. However as human beings we have been given the choice to do want so if we choose to do evil then we will just have to face the consequences of our actions whether it be in this world or the next. So God may allow our evil actions to cause an effect but does that mean it's God's fault or is it what our own hands have earned?
We need to ask ourselves Am I all knowledgeable? all wise? How can we as human-beings judge the actions of God or what is happening (disease, natural disasters etc) as something evil? How can we use our limited minds and intellect to say what is going to happen in the future or to judge whether or not what is occuring is for the best. No doubt we leave all these decisions that requires great wisdom and knowledge to the one who is All- Knowledgeable and Wise, so we can say He knows what He is doing. For example if we take our small child to get their vaccinations done, the small baby will be crying and will perceive the big needle as a evil and terrible thing that is causing them great pain. The child will not necessarily see that this vaccine is preventing them from a greater harm or will bring to them a greater good, because you will say as the parent 'I know better'. So how can you ascribe to the one that created you anything less than yourselves?
Secondly my religion teaches me that this world is transient and a test, the idea of paradise on earth doesn't make sense because paradise is eternal and perfect whereas this world and everything in it has its appointed term and will come to an end, nothing in this life is constant, things go up and things go down. So one really should ask themselves why should we cling to this world and neglect or forget about the eternal one to come. So the stance I take on this world is that I try my best to build up my account of good deeds in order to see the reward in the hereafter
(however you do taste the reward in this world also) and I leave the judgement to God, the Just Ruler.
Finally, noone said that in the hereafter our memories are wiped out and we don't remember anything, it's quite the contrary. Rather everyone will be so regretful as to what the have done in this life and will be worried about the judgement that is going to befall them on that day (day of judgement). God tells us in the Quran that 'That Day mankind will proceed in scattered groups that they may be shown their deeds. So whosoever does good equal to the weight of an atom shall see it. And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it' (chapter 99, verses 6-8).
So as we can see noone will be left without a just judgement, after all one of the attributes of God is that he is the All- Just.
I do agree with you Lim that we should not be busy with just reading the book of God without acting on what the book of God is telling us to do. And my religion teaches me that I will be held accountable if I do this. That is why if a religion is claiming to have come from God must have a set way of living, this religion must tell us HOW to live a good life, and must tell us what is/isn't good for us. This religion must also tell us our purpose of life.
There is so much more to say on this topic....
Apologies everyone for leaving my reply so late, my response was erased when my browser crashed several times, and got me suitably frustrated that I typed this in a word document to prevent any other mishaps.
I am going to begin on a technical note: could the anonymous posters please use pseudonyms so that I may distinguish between you without too much clicking, thank you.
Anonymous (27 March 2009 08:10),
I agree that in the vast majority of cases we are given opportunities to better ourselves and the people around us, and we as people should recognise these opportunities and take them. But as we know, not everyone gets the same opportunities – and I believe this is the root cause of the disparity between the rich and poor that we have today, rather than all the poor people in the world not taking the opportunities that they were given. In addition, there is the matter of luck, or as some people call it, the “sperm lottery” – not every successful person got there by hard work. My opinion of a fair and just world is that everyone should be given opportunity, and the manner in which they treat these opportunities should then reflect on them.
I am being driven to give back to society what luck has bestowed to me, and I feel this is a responsibility that the fortunate should all undertake. This is my sense of purpose, and my deepest fear, for I don’t know what will ever be enough. Will I one day not need to give? Will my feet allow me to tarry somewhere I can choose to forget the problems that we face as a species? Most of all, are there others like me, others who would make this lonely future more bearable, or will I be forever condemned to wander this earth trying to create something that will never come true?
Agreed, religion, as with any other idea, has been used for good as well as terrible purposes. I do intend to spur people on, because that to me is the only way forward. This blog is perhaps my first step to ask whether anyone feels the way I do, and is willing to act on it. As a result, may I ask you readers to all do a bit of advertising for me and tell your friends to read and discuss this blog if they will.
With regards to the whiteboard – I believe you and I are approaching the topic from two opposite directions, a.k.a. is the glass half empty or half full? Obviously it is both, and we should be thankful of what we have, while at the same time improving things for those who don't have as much as us. The question really is whether we can fill it to the brim. I don’t think the answer will be found in this, or any forum, but all we can do is try.
Teik,
Agreed, we can choose whether to do something, but sometimes we cannot choose whether to have something done to us, if you get what I mean.
Hean,
Will take a full and proper look at the blog thanks, that should satisfy my appetite for a while yet.
As for Occam’s Razor – well that’s what I’m applying, it’s how I have those three possibilities. Obviously I have assumed certain very idealistic qualities of a higher being (though not the existence of said being), but then that’s what a higher being is supposed to be isn’t it?
Edmond,
I don’t agree that life would be meaningless if people didn’t believe in god. Atheists and agnostics can believe, and work for, a cause just as much as you and I. Having said that, I cannot imagine a world where everyone is atheistic – we as a species do need religion.
Choice or lives? It’s hard to say. I used to think of god as a father figure, who would leave us to our own devices until we do something ridiculous, like launch a nuclear bomb (which we have done, several times). That’s when I’d like god to step in and spank some people really hard. Since this hasn’t yet happened, that means my understanding of god is wrong, or that the world has not yet reached a point where god is willing to step in and give his kids a piece of his mind.
I definitely agree with you that if we were all in a state of bliss, then things would be rather boring, and that we wouldn’t have much to do. However, I do believe that the world could do with a lot less suffering while still remaining an interesting place to be born into.
Anonymous (06 April 2009 16:38)
I agree with you that (according to the third possibility that I suggested) god gives us choice, and that we should reap the consequences of our actions. However as one not of the faith, I cannot be certain that we will eventually be brought to judgement, since I am uncertain of the existence of god. If there is a higher power, then I certainly hope that he would work in the way you have described, because if he did it any other way then I don’t think we can call him god.
With regards to this world or the other, it would seem that we are approaching the topic on parallel lines – you believe that what we do in this world results in how we are treated in the next, and I believe in a sense of right and wrong – in both cases, we both want to do good deeds, though perhaps for different reasons. I hope however that if the third possibility proves true, I shall be judged by my deeds in this world, rather than by any superfluous actions to look religious.
Karma, as discussed in previous comments, is a Hindu/Buddhist explanation of how the world works and how we are judged. As mentioned, my disagreement with it is that firstly it doesn’t appear to work in this life (evidence provided in previous comment) and secondly, if our memories are erased (which it claims) then punishing us in a future life for an action we committed but don’t remember isn’t really going to be that useful to us to achieve enlightenment.
And yes, I agree with you – we need to take action, rather than constantly read and recite the holy books – prayer without action will get us further than no prayer at all; but without action, prayer is still not much use to improve the world.
If you would like to say anything more, please do – I think it is a welcome breath of fresh air when we can discuss what we believe openly.
When I said do good in this world and you will be able to see the rewards in the hereafter (as well as this world) I didn't mean that the sole intention to do good is so that you are rewarded. Rather I believe that all human-beings have been created with the innate nature to want to do good. As human-beings we want good, pure things but there is an aspect of greed and selfishness in us all that we have to overcome and that in itself makes us a strong human-being. So yes I agree with you that you want to do good because you believe in a right and wrong because how can you not when it has been created in us.
Also could you clarify what you meant when you said:
'I hope however that if the third possibility proves true, I shall be judged by my deeds in this world, rather than by any superfluous actions to look religious.'
Apologies if I have caused any insult, that was not my intention.
Unfortulately there are some people who choose to do good because they see it as their ticket into heaven, and I strongly disagree that they should want to help others for the sake of themselves - although, one could say that I am doing exactly the same by trying to fulfil my own desire for the world to be a better place.
When I say "superfluous actions to look religious", I am referring very specifically to people who associate themselves with a belief to improve their standing and social status, rather than because they actually believe in it. Unfortunately, where I come from there are too many who swear by a belief, then do not behave accordingly - especially true in the rampant moneypolitik that plagues Malaysia and many other developing countries. We see corrupt "religious leaders" turned polticians, who dare preach to their flock to help their fellow men. And hypocrisy is another thing that I cannot stand.
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